Kenneth C. Ulmer: Some churches in US lose Christianity

Bishop and senior pastor-teacher of Faithful Central Bible Church in Inglewood, California, Kenneth C. Ulmer gave an interview to Christian Telegraph. One of the largest congregations in the United States, Faithful Central worships together in The Forum - the legendary former home of the L.A. Lakers. You can read the interview below.

It seems to us that the United States are loosing their position as the Christian nation, they are loosing their values and it’s much more different now then it used to be even a couple of years before. Please, give your comments on this situation.

Yes, I think there is a theological and philosophical shift in America. I believe it is a fulfillment of the prophecies in Scripture of the end times. I think that morally America is shifting. I think that the culture is becoming less religious, less godly, but more spiritual. There is an emphasis on spirituality but not biblical one. There is more humanistic philosophy that’s spreading over in America.

Like tolerance and “love” for everyone?

Yes, there is more of a universalism; there is more of a humanistic apostolate that is no longer Judeo-Christian. Where is America was at one time centered and grounded on a Judeo-Christian Bibliocentric philosophy of life. It’s drifting more and more from that now, which, I think, becomes the challenge of the church – to call the culture back to a philosophy and apostolate that is more God-centered. And that’s the challenge the church is facing right now. In the face of these changes, when the culture more and more humanistic the church is called to take a stand and to call the culture back to centre.

The things like tolerance and humanistic values were born by the Protestant movement but where is the edge for Christians where tolerance won’t hurt the Gospel?

Well, I think the church faces a challenge that is found in the declaration of Jesus. Jesus says: “If I be lifted up, I will draw all men unto Me.” And I think the challenge of the Church is to find the balance between being authentic and being attractive. Jesus says: “If I be lifted up” – that’s the authentic message of the Gospel, “I will draw or attract on into Me” – that’s attractive. And the church has to find the balance between the authentic biblical message and being attractive to its culture. What the church has chosen to do is to become one or the other. So it is often so authentic that it looses its attractiveness to the culture. And it has no impact on the culture. Or it would choose to become attractive and loose the authentic message of the Bible and Jesus. So the Church in an attempt to attract, reach out to the world is diluting, minimizing the whole message of Christ, and chooses just a portion of the message of Christ – tolerance, love. And of course, God is love. The God is also the God of standards, holiness and righteousness. And so the challenge of a church is to not be authentic or attractive, but to be both.

In this part of the world rumors are going out that many churches in America don’t preach the Gospel. They just preach some sort of “social gospel” without mentioning sin.

That’s the point I was trying to make about the balance. And that’s the challenge. So in an attempt to be attractive there are those who, for example, will say that they will never speak on sin, they will never speak on righteousness and holiness. And they do so in an attempt to be attractive, to attract the world, to attract people, to attract the crowds, to attract numbers. And in doing so they sacrifice the authenticity of the authentic message of Jesus that is a God of love. But the God of love also has standards of holiness. The church has chosen to be rather attractive and it is in danger of loosing the authentic message. So the rumors you are actually hearing are truth – in some parts of the church.

So is this more like a trend or just some of the churches do so?

And again, here is my point – it is a challenge to be both authentic and attractive. And much of the church has chosen to compromise the authentic message in order to be attractive. In doing so it will not talk of the things like conviction and sin. Because they think: “if I do so, I will not be attractive.”

Many of Russian people are asking a question about the American Christian leaders. Are there any successors of those great and recognized ministers like Edwin Louis Cole, Billy Graham?

The succession is much like a succession of Martin Luther King in the black movement. The key figure of the movement was Doctor martin Luther King. Then he passed. And there was never Martin Luther King. There was Jesse Jackson and some others, but never Martin Luther King. But there were many little “Martin Luther Kings”. One man gave birth to many men and many women. So what one man did, now many, many people are doing in communities. They will never be in the press, never be on TV, and never be in the news paper. And I think the same is happening in the church community. The succession, the next generation, I don’t think, will be super stars. I think they will be grassroots men and women who are building churches and are building disciples.

What is the biggest problem of the modern Christians in America?

Like I said earlier – it is the problem of being authentic and attractive. The churches in America that are dying are churches that are either only authentic or only attractive. Extreme. Many mainline churches in America are dying because the extreme social message has no power to change lives. It’s not authentic. Many conservative churches are dying because no one is coming. They are not attracting men and women because they are so authentic that they are so orthodox and so traditional that the young generation is not attracted, they are not coming. The conservative authentic old school, as we call it. Old school message is not attractive to the hip-hop generation. So they are not attracting the young generation and they are dying. So both extremes are in danger. The challenge of a church is to not be one or the other. The challenge of the church is to be both. As Jesus was. He was authentic and he was attractive.

What are your principles and suggestions for the church growth? What are the main points in making the church grow in numbers?

I don’t know if I’ve been successful. I don’t feel successful all the time. Even though I have the numbers. Because the Biblical success is to make disciples whose lives are changed and who then become agents of change in the culture. And that is a different measurement then measuring how many members you have, and how big your church is. I think the culture asks the wrong question. We ask “how many members do you have?” That’s not what Jesus says. That’s not what the Bible says. Jesus says: “Go and make disciples.” So I don’t know how successful I am. How do you grow a church, how do you become successful? I think you become successful only to the degree to which you’re making disciples. And disciples are men and women whose lives have been changed by the power of Christ. And then who go out and change their culture. They will turn the world upside down, they will change culture, they will impact every area of culture – economic, social, religious, financial etc. Who are being released into a culture as agents of salt and light – to change their culture, to impact and influence it. And to that degree we are being successful – how do you do that? You only do that by making disciples who have that mindset. Who recognize that that is their goal. Their goal is not to come to church. Their goal is not to be a part of the congregation. Their goal is to be released by the power of Christ into a culture that they would have the influence and impact. And the biblical pattern is – how do you make disciples? - Because disciples should be our challenge, our goal. And I think here is a danger of another movement in the church. That is not even to say that the goal is evangelism. Many would say the goal is evangelism. The Bible says the goal is discipleship. Disciples are men and women who are always saved. But not everyone who is saved is a disciple. And evangelism only targets “being saved”. Discipleship targets “being changed”.

Does your church use modern high tech methods and technologies – like the Internet, PR, marketing technologies etc?

Yes. We do because we have to. That is the description, that is the nature of this culture. In other words – we cannot use methods that are outdated. We cannot use yesterday’s tools to reach today’s culture. And the tools of today are technological. The tools of today are informational. The tools of today are Internet, TV and media. And so the day of knocking on doors, which was a very popular way of evangelism fifty years ago won’t work today. In my culture if you knock on doors, somebody will shoot you, so you must find a way to penetrate that culture according to the communication methods and communication opportunities of that culture, which is now Internet and technologies.

[08/27/2008]

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